Grixis Control

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=209685

Thoughts?

I really like this build, and other than the lands its not too terribly taxing on the wallet either.
Redcap's does constructed FNMs every Friday, and i have been wanting to build something fun and playable but i often cant afford to build a good tier 1 deck.

I may be able to budget the lands for a bit until i require what i need. Sorin's arent too hard to get and i have the rest.

I really hate the "Jacerator" version of mill being played right now, the vamp deck is meh, and i cant afford walletslayers which seem to be in almost every other deck.

Build Valakut! Most expensive cards:

4x Valakut: $8
4x BB Elf: $8-10
4x Oracle of Mul Daya: $5-6
4x Siege-Gang Commander: $12
2x Rampaging Baloths (optional): $4

SB
4x Goblin Ruinblaster: $4

Everything else is cheap as fuck. And it's hilarious to play.

I took it to 3rd place at Redcaps FNM.

Dan, link your full list for Valakut? i never saw it but i recall you mentioning it.

I really like this Grixis list as it combines burn with control, UR is my favorite color combo ever.
And ever since i opened double cruel ultimatum at the prerelease i have been wanting to play it in a constructed deck but couldnt afford the "last" cruel decklist.

im looking for a few scalding tarn or thought hemorrhage if anyone has them for trade.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, I NEED 2 DRAGONSKULL SUMMIT. FYI. Help me out if you can.


Okay, im going to put my thoughts to "paper" here to try to reason my through the various Grixis builds out there. This may end up being TL:DR but if anyone reads it all and wants to offer advice i would really appreciate it.
I value your opinions, so until i playtest it i'd like to see what everyone thinks about the various ways to build the Grixis Control deck.


The first decision is card draw options.
There are shitty few options for card draw in this standard season, so these are the best options. Some are running 3 courier's capsule and 3 divination, some 4 and 2 of one or the other. Some people are not running Capsule at all, but instead running 4 divination and 2 mind spring.
Some are running sign in blood but many argue against that.
Thoughts?
I'd probably lean towards 3 caps and 3 divs with no mind spring or sign in blood.

Next is to run Spreading Seas or not. I think this one is heavily dependent on your meta, and if i were to be playing at FNM at Redcap's Friday Nights ive been told the meta is heavy with Jund and Bant. Its great disruption for a deck that needs 3 diff mana available and its a cantrip. Still not convinced though, will just have to playtest it, but curious what you think of it.
I'd like to run 4 but i have only acquired 1 through drafts surprisingly so ill have to hunt 3 more.
I'm actually tempted to run Goblin Ruinblaster along with Spreading seas to really fuck with the opponents mana base but it would probably take me too far away from the original build's intention.

Next is the removal package.
4 lighting bolts seems static for most/all builds, no question there.
Some decks are light on terminate, others are heavy. Some decks run Wretched Banquet. In a deck with very little if any creatures, it seems like a decent play as on turn 3 you can kill something and still have mana ready to counter key turn 3/4 plays by the opponent.

I'd probably either go 4 terminate or maybe 2 terminate and 2 wretched banquet to test the banquet.
2 Earthquake seems pretty standard.
Agony Warp? Most dont seem to run it, some do. I could see against Boros it being better, so maybe its a SB card against Boros?

Burst Lightning? I would be interested to try to make room for 2 as its versatile early and late it can finish to the face or remove the larger things that get played. Except Walletslayer of course.


The counterspells.
Some tough choices here.
Again, meta dictates you can get away with maindecking Flashfreeze. I'd say 3 is sufficient but ive seen all 4 maindeck.

The amount of Double Negatives to play maindeck is an interesting one. Are you playing Double Negative to have a 3 cost hard counter that occasionally trips up cascade or are you anticipating that much cascade? Not having played in the environment i wonder which of those 2 scenarios is more true. Bloodbraid Elf is a pretty powerful card though...

Negate or Countersquall? Some argue that if you are going to bother running Negate why not just run squall? Obviously its more mana intensive but i would be leaning towards playing the squall and see if i get hung up trying to cast it. I guess the argument is with running sphinx, sorin and cruel you arent concerned with your opponent's life total before you hit 6 and 7 mana for your bombs.

Essence Scatter is in there, not sure how many yet.

Swerve... what am i looking to swerve ideally? Whats swerve really in there for i wonder? I have a shrouded Sphinx, so perhaps to protect your planeswalker or reflect a blightning? Not sure on this one.


Next... Hand disruption. Duress and Blightning have been seen in builds, but many play neither. Any thoughts on them? Blightning is an aggressive card, not typical in a control deck, but hand disruption IS control, is it not? Maybe duress sideboard versus the mirror?

Next: Mind Control vs: Slave of Bolas.
First, would you run either? Not sure if these are more sideboard or maindeck cards. Ive seen builds with them all over the place.
Positives of mind control: You keep control, but the negative is, Pulse or O-ring amongst other cards gives them the creature back.
Slave bonus is that you dont have to worry about the creature hurting you once you sac it. Again, if you are not concerned about damaging your opponent much turns 1 through 5, maybe Bolas is the way to go. Thoughts?

Other cards to consider in the maindeck.
Into the Roil and Traumatic Visions (almost sure this is a no for me but thought id mention it as i saw it in atleast 1 build that top 8'd somewhere)

I'll get into the SB options once i flesh out the main deck.

Give me some feedback!

Wow, you've put a lot of thought into this. I haven't done nearly as much research as you seem to have done, but here are some opinions regardless:

Mind Spring seems to be played quite often, as it can scale quite nicely. I've seen it in LSV's UWR control deck and it seems to work well for him. As for the other two, I do like Courier's Capsule. Even though it's slower, it can be activated at EOT, allowing your counters to work better. I would think Sign in Blood works better in a more aggressive deck, since you want to keep your life total up in this one; you won't be winning by turn 5.

Spreading Seas does play well against the most popular (and strongest) deck in the format, Jund. It's playable because it cantrips, it disrupts most non-blue decks, and they might even peg you as the wrong deck early on. You can worry about it being dead against a few decks, but I go back to LSV at the recent 5k he won, where he had 4 flashfreeze, 4 spreading seas maindeck, giving him 8 dead cards against certain decks. And he still came out on top... something to think about.

I like bolt as it serves double duty. Haven't given much thought to Wretched Banquet, as I hate sorcery speed removal, but it makes sense in the context you're mentioning. If you're going to skip terminate, just make sure you counter that Baneslayer Angel, or you're screwed. Agony Warp seems no good for you. You're not running enough creatures for the -3/-0 to be combat relevant. Earthquake is better, though against something like Boros, it may have already put you down too far to play one. And I like bolt, terminate, and earthquake better than Burst Lightning, as you're just trying to kill the creatures as cheaply as possible, not race with damage. Remember to be controlly.

That's all I have time for for now.

thanks for the response Dan, good points.

Regarding Agony Warp, i just wanted to mention, it may be a decent side against Boros or any perhaps even vampires because the -3 is relevant in the sense that for 2 mana you are essentially negating TWO attackers, removing one, and likely canceling out most/all damage by the other. You are avoiding taking crazy damage early until you can draw your better answer like earthquake or terminate or what have you.

I think i want to run Spreading Seas but i just cant get past how crap it is late game. If you dont draw it early its pretty bad but not completely dead due to the cantrip.
If i run the seas, im not sure what to do regarding capsule vs: divination.
I dont have any mind spring, so ill play without it for now until i can witness some other grixis control decks in action and figure out whats best.

FYI:

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/rule-of-law-tuning-grixis/

I've been kind of thinking or trying this deck as well. I don't have all the lands, but I have everything else, so I'm sure I find some way to fudge the figures there.

This series is great.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-lsv-constructed-daily-event-1-grixis-match-1-game-1/

i just noticed grixis control is no longer a thread listed in competitive decks on salvation. It has been downgraded to "developing"...


Im not completely shocked due to its dependence on Cruel Ultimatum mana being available.

Perhaps the deck can run without Cruel and still be Grixis Control?

I may have to test without it.

LSV said it was his deck of choice going into PT San Diego, but that it just kept losing so he had to abandon it eventually.

Incidentally, I only got every other word of your message yesterday. Which tournament were you talking about?

Slyphidine wrote:LSV said it was his deck of choice going into PT San Diego, but that it just kept losing so he had to abandon it eventually.

Incidentally, I only got every other word of your message yesterday. Which tournament were you talking about?

Do you have a link where you read that by chance?

Regarding my message, i was referring to redcap's friday.
I plan to go and attempt to find Jace2's and playtest Grixis control either with or without Cruel.

I have a show that night, but I'll be there another time. I kinda want to build the Death Shadow Sligh deck showcased on the mothersite today.

Here's the original article:

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-when-45-points-just-isnt-enough-3rd/

Slyphidine wrote:I have a show that night, but I'll be there another time. I kinda want to build the Death Shadow Sligh deck showcased on the mothersite today.

Here's the original article:

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-when-45-points-just-isnt-enough-3rd/

good read, thanks for the link.

the sparkmage collar combo is nasty.

Slyphidine wrote:This series is great.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-lsv-constructed-daily-event-1-grixis-match-1-game-1/

I hate to sound like a noob, but what program is he using? I have been looking for something like that, but so I could build and play test decks before I even think about getting the cards.

~Zuty

That's Magic Online. And unless you want to buy each of the cards on there at retail price, you're better off downloading Magic Workstation or Apprentice. They can be a pain to use sometimes, but they're FREEEEEEEE!

Damn. Yeah, looks like I will need to use Apprentice again.

~Zuty

ok, here are the most commonly played standard decks at the moment.
Jund
"Boss" Naya
Vampires
White Weenie
RDW
Boros
Bant
U/W Control
and Grixis Control lastly

I am trying to develop my sideboard without knowing the meta at Redcap's.
i ASSUME Jund and Vamp will be plentiful, but the next few decks to prep for is difficult to guess. Is the local meta on the U/W tip already? Will there be lots of ww or rdw?
Tough call.


Here are a few sample grixis sideboards from salvation:
Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Flashfreeze
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
1 Mind Shatter
1 Negate
2 Swerve
4 Vampire Nighthawk

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chain Reaction
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Flashfreeze
4 Duress

Sideboard
4 x Duress
1 x Chain Reaction
2 x Malakir Bloodwitch
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Cancel
2 x Though Hemmorhage
4 x Vampire Nighthawk

Im certain now that pithing needle has to be in the sideboard for the new challenge of collar, elspeth, and man lands amongst other threats.
Possibly maindeck worthy, although its nearly useless against vamp or jund with no manlands.
Im nor sure what the duress is for exactly. Against mirror control match ups i guess?
Malakir bloodwitch is obviously boarded in against anything white.
I assume the nighthawk is to battle vamps, but is that really the only tech against them? (Im running spreading seas maindeck so that screws with vamps also.)

Ok, this is my almost for sure build going into the weekend.
Im going to try to hit redcaps tonight to playtest and check the meta if my wife doesnt kill me for trying to play friday AND saturday night.

Any comments or suggestions welcome. Id be happy to explain why i went with particular cards and numbers and see if my reasoning is flawed.

34 cards
4 spreading seas
3 bolt
3 terminate
2 quake
2 negate
2 double neg
3 essence scatter
3 cruel ultimatum
2 sphinx
2 sorin
3 jace 2
2 into the roil
2 calcite snapper
1 pithing needle

26 lands
3 swamp
2 mountain
4 island
4 crumbling necropolis
4 scalding tarn
3 dragonskull summit
4 drowned catacomb
2 creeping tar pits

What are you trying to hit with Pithing Needle? I suppose Planeswalkers, Equipment, and a few activated abilities (Master of the Wild Hunt, Knight of the Reliquary) make it worthwhile.

Good luck! I should be there Saturday night. If you can play tonight, try getting into the tournament. It's $5, but you'll face a realistic gauntlet for the next day. You can also enter into the free casual tournament, but you're likely to hit more fluffy decks there.

I commented on this to John W, but among all of us, we have about 6 or 7 Jaces now. That means that if one of us wants to play in one of the bigger tournaments this year (or even more than one of us), we have the cards to make it happen, as long as we're willing to share. I for one think that's awesome.

Slyphidine wrote:What are you trying to hit with Pithing Needle? I suppose Planeswalkers, Equipment, and a few activated abilities (Master of the Wild Hunt, Knight of the Reliquary) make it worthwhile.

You are forgetting manlands, which make it more worthwhile

Slyphidine wrote:
I commented on this to John W, but among all of us, we have about 6 or 7 Jaces now. That means that if one of us wants to play in one of the bigger tournaments this year (or even more than one of us), we have the cards to make it happen, as long as we're willing to share. I for one think that's awesome.

I actually only own 1 jace2 so far, im going to borrow 2 from Adam at Redcaps.

here is the sideboard, which im totally sketchy on and most wanting to test tonight before tomorrow
3 flashfreeze
3 deathmark
2 malakir bloodwitch
1 telemin performance
1 pithing needle
3 vampire nighthawk
2 duress

not sure about the duress, i might want just more counter.
If there is alot of U/W players i may opt for a few dispel instead.
preferably i think i want 2 pithing needle sideboard but i only own 2 total.

Gah! Michaela just picked up a last minute shift working tonight so im free to play, but i just read online Redcap's competitive standard starts at 6pm and theres no way other than spending $15 on a cab ride ill get there on time. Rats.

Think ill go anyway, maybe play a few games in the casual round and try to observe the competitive rounds as closely as possible without looking like a creepy punter.

Bojuka Bog...

sideboard tech perhaps?
Possibly removes a Bloodghast
Shrinks a Knight of the Reliquery
Crushes a crypt deck
Helps against mill running haunting echoes, or to keep their Crabs from re entering play.
Might be a few other things it could help.