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~BIG DECK~ Discussion

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Post  MidniteEffort Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:00 pm

this is a format that is always a lot of fun, and always has interesting plays and wide pendulum swings.

Requirements
no less than 250 cards
at least 20 of each color (multicolor counts)
~100 land, but whatever you feel comfortable with and works is fine.
highlander rules, i.e. no two cards (except basic land) may have the same name.

see the Big Deck Rules thread for expanded rules.

i think we should make our own banned list, instead of using the 5-color list, as that format is much more degenerate, tutor-based, and combo-based. the highlander aspect of our format makes it a little less structured.


Last edited by MidniteEffort on Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:36 am; edited 12 times in total
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Post  MidniteEffort Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:03 pm

i really think Price of Progress should be out. it goes against the spirit of this format to kill all three of your opponents with one two-mana spell.
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Post  Uniclonus Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:43 pm

Well, I did also copy it with a Mirari, just to be sure...

I'm not sure if Price of Progress really needs to be banned. It doesn't seem broken, just rather unfair since most decks can't safely run it, since it hits all players. I think it only really can work in a deck like mine, since mine is comparatively low on non-basic lands.
Having said that, I will remove it from my deck when I get a chance.

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Post  MidniteEffort Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:46 am

ok, it's settled. currently, i'm looking at the 5-color BR list, and thinking of adding some of them on there. frankly, i think we should try some of the banned ones out and see how degenerate they are.

JIM, i need your input here. you're one of the biggest advocates of this format.

edit: oh shit, i just read that 5-color pushed the minimum card number up to 300! is this something we should consider?
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Post  redxxii Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:07 am

I'll go through the list, see what impacts us and what doesn't.

As for going up to 300 cards, I'd rather not. It already takes forever for us to search and shuffle our decks, adding 50 extra cards won't make that any easier.

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Post  Slyphidine Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:12 am

Check

www.5-color.com

vs

url=http://www.5-color.org]www.5-color.org[/url]

The second one keeps most of the old rules. The schism is pretty funny, as biasedly outlaid in Abe Sargent's SSG article.
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Post  MidniteEffort Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:27 am

our format really is much different. we don't have a lot of the weird trappings of the actual format. we are the second schism. i'm looking at their BR lists (both now) just for ideas.
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Post  redxxii Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:10 pm

I like unbanning Panoptic Mirror, it's a fun card that you can do a lot of cray things with if you get it set up. But, it's not a overwhelming powerful card since there's a ton of artifact hate in the format. Overall, I like the B&R list at 5-Color.com, but going up to 300 cards seems a bit unpractical...

I figure some guy must have gone "hey, 300 card is WAY better than 250, let's add an extra 50!" Cool idea, but it'll just slow things down even more (ie, I'm the slowest searching next to John when he has Land-Tax, and I know it takes too damn long to find that particular dual-land/artifact/creature, ect).

Edit: the only way I see around this doing a pre-search thing, where if we know we're going to need to search for something we get it beforehand, like we do typically in multiplayer games (ie, got a Jungle Valley in play tapped, getting my Bayou now so I can put it in playing during my upkeep). Or, we could just say I find this and play it, then get it out of our deck (also something we did last time). Still... it's going to take long.

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~BIG DECK~ Discussion Empty i retooled my big deck!

Post  MidniteEffort Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:31 am

ok, i took out a lot of garbage. Mire and River Boas are out, along with the overflow of land search and some crap that never performed too well. i still need a little more repeatable card draw, but i have a bunch of fun, large beaters. i'm still way heavy on green. but it's really hard to cut some cards. we gotta play again soon, i want to test out my 5 hours of work on this thing.
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Post  redxxii Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:54 pm

I need to redo my deck as well. I'm going for a more recursion-heavy theme, being able to do things multiple times, ect. I'm not going John's dredge route though, or Steve's Buyback concept. Something different...

I'm putting Panoptic Mirror back in, but I'm willing to take it out if it proves to be a problem.

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Post  Uniclonus Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:42 am

I did some edits to mine the other day, adding some stuff. I need to play it a little more to see whether certain cards should be pulled or not. I did toss in Panoptic Mirror, gotta see how good or bad it ends up being. I expect that with the variety of removal, it won't be that bad. The only way I can see it really being a problem is if someone manages to get a Time Warp or Geddon effect on it unanswered.

Oh, thanks to one of the articles over on mtg.com, I found the rules stuff for Respawn Magic. Considering how the games we have tend to go, maybe we should think of incorporating some of these rules in.


Respawn is exactly like a normal Free-for-All multiplayer game, except:

You can join the game at any time, picking a deck and a chair.
If you've been eliminated, you can rejoin the game (usually in the same chair), with the same deck or a different deck, immediately or later.
When you join or rejoin the game, you resolve any mulligans and immediately take three turns. During those three turns, you're in a "new player bubble"—basically, a separate solitaire game of Magic. Nothing you do inside the bubble affects players outside the bubble (or in a different bubble), and vice versa. You fully enter the game when you start your fourth turn in regular turn order.
If you want to keep score, here's Abe's system:
Gain 1 point each time you kill an opponent.
Lose 1 point each time you die.
If you voluntarily leave the game, lose 1 point. The last player to damage you, if any, gains 1 point.
The player with the most points at the end of the night wins.

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Post  Slyphidine Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

I do like this, as we tend to leave potentially dangerous players in the game so they won't feel left out (well, I do anyway), and we tend to not knock players out early on because then they have to wait to get back in the game. This could make the games a little more aggressive without the drawback of someone waiting on the sidelines for an hour or so.
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Post  MidniteEffort Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:56 am

sounds good to me. now put together a damn big deck, Dan. i promise you, you can have both an awesome Cube and a formidable big deck simultaneously.
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Post  Slyphidine Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:56 am

Maybe I can have a "pillage list" from the Cube. You know, I just go through the cube, build my deck, and then take it apart when I'm done.

I think I can do the same thing for EDH.

Ok... I'll work on it after San Francisco.
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Post  redxxii Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:08 am

I've had requests from some people at AU for a rules-list for our Big-Deck format. If no one minds, I'm going to be combing through the old B&R list at 5color.org and from the new list at 5color.com to start figuring this out.

Cards already on the list include:

Detrivore
Invincible Hymn
Battle of Wits
Shahrazad

I think the Power 9 should also be added to the list, since we know people at AU have access to them, and they tend to break games pretty badly when played (especially considering most of the people who play Big Deck currently don't have access to them).

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Post  MidniteEffort Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:25 am

Jim, send them here! that's why we have this forum.

i added Shahrazad to the list. i think Timetwister would be ok, but i think Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, the Moxen and Lotus are out.


Last edited by MidniteEffort on Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  redxxii Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:39 am

Yeah, I was thinking that myself, but I want to get a solid list together. Most of the card on the list for B&R at the 5-color sites seem fine to me, most are just overpowered tutors or graveyard recursion cards (like Yawgmoth's Will, ect). If you had 4-copies I'd be overpowered, at 1 it's pretty tame.

If you guys can think of anything that should be B&R'ed, let me know, otherwise I think we should just keep it to what was already listed and add as needed:

Detrivore
Battle of Wits
Invincible Hymn
Shahrazad
Phyrexian Portal
Time Vault
Price of Progress
"Power 9"

Basically, ban anything that's really stupid and un-fun (Shahrazad, Phyrexian Portal, and Invincible Hymn) or just overpowered (Detrivore, Battle of Wits).

Things to consider when banning: does it drop a huge amount of cards into the graveyard (more than 20+ cards at a time), gain huge amounts of life (100+ at a time), prevent other players from taking another turn, ever (time vault combo) or other things that slow the game down, make them boring, no interaction ect.

Either way, we should encourage new players not to build combo decks that use tutors to find one or two cards and just win on the back of that. John's "Reoccurring Nightmare" into "Deranged Hermit" is just on the right-side of broken combo, anything that just wins the game on one or two cards is stupid and boring (especially since most Big Deck games are slow enough that if someone really wanted to they could just spend the entire time searching for combo pieces and then win). Players should be encouraged to build a theme (artifacts, buyback, dredge, recursion, beats, ect).


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Post  Uniclonus Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:47 am

Just because I think someone is gonna bring it up eventually (and I'd rather it happen now than say during a game or something), proxies: yes or no? And if yes, what's the limits? Me, I'd say no.

Also, with this being a rather casual format, what about Un cards?

And while we're talking cards to put on the list, what about Time Vault? Considering the search we have available, and the various ways of untapping it, I could see it maybe being an issue

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Post  redxxii Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:52 am

Okay, Time Vault on the list now!

But yeah, I'd say no to proxies. It encourages people to "build with what you have" and keeps decks from being too similar (since not everyone has access to the same card pool). Un-cards should be out unless the group specifically demands for them, since they tend to be broken (Gleemax) or just confusing as hell (Wizards Support Line).

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Post  MidniteEffort Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:49 pm

proxies should be right out.

Brandon, John O, and i were talking about allowing (only) one Un card that is both fun and allows for more interactions.

there is no banned list, but it'll be obvious which ones are out. your Un card would have to be agreed upon by everyone.

examples include:
Strategy, Schmategy
Censorship
Checks and Balances
Mirror Mirror
Ladies' Knight
Cheatyface
Booster Tutor (the best tutor, cause it doesn't search your library!)
Blast from the Past
My First Tome
Water Gun Balloon Game
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~BIG DECK~ Discussion Empty banned list on first page is updated!

Post  MidniteEffort Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:04 pm

added card links too.

should we institute the Respawn rules? i think Dan is absolutely correct. it will allow us to be more aggressive and more willing to take someone out.
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Post  redxxii Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:18 pm

I'm generally against Un-cards, but that's because I mostly hate playing un-cards after doing 1 too many un-drafts...

Respawn rules are okay, though it might make games run forever... I'd say players can only respawn if all other players agree (in case the game needs to end due to time constraints, burnout, ect).

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Post  MidniteEffort Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:27 pm

i don't think allowing one Un card in a 250 card deck will really ever equate the level of Un-ness that an Unhinged draft did.

as for Respawn, what will happen is everyone will agree beforehand when the game will end. then scores are tallied and it's over.
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~BIG DECK~ Discussion Empty polls added!

Post  MidniteEffort Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:38 pm

check the top of the Casual Magic forum for the polls i added for our Big Deck rulings! this is America, a democracy!
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Post  redxxii Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:39 pm

Sounds good to me then. I'll send some more time today going over some ideas for the B&R list.

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