~BIG DECK~ Discussion

If you're going to go to that much trouble to protect Maze of Ith, why not just use Sacred Ground? I mean, if you're going to use bad cards, why not use something really bad? Plus, it saves your other lands too.

what cards from the last year of Magic have you guys added to your big decks? i haven't touched it since M10.

Admonition Angel
Basilisk Collar
Bloodchief Ascension
Death's Shadow
Emeria Angel
Frontier Guide
Kor Sanctifiers
Ob-Nixilis, the Fallen
Oracle of Mul Daya
Rampaging Baloths
Scute Mob
Sorin Markov
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Stone-Forge Mystic
Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Vampire Hexmage
Vampire Nighthawk
World Queller

Other possible inclusions are Punishing Fire and Tectonic Edge

At the moment, the ones I can think of are:
Vampire Nighthawk
Vampire Hexmage
Oracle of Mul Daya
Kor Sanctifiers
Mold Shambler? (The 3/3 green thing with Kicker to kill an artifact or whatever)
Sorin
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
World Queller
Comet Storm
Wrexial, The Risen Deep
Amulet of Vigor

There might be more, but I'd have to look.
I'm plotting to put the dual Man-lands in when I get around to getting all of 'em. And I'm considering Percy. Not sure yet.

A couple of tricks to build a Big Deck:

1. Don't worry about money cards.

The cards that are best in Big Deck are rarely expensive. I just threw together the best, splashy cards i had lying around, and it was sick. Use cards you like, cards you have, cards that wouldn't find a place in any other format. Ever play with Cauldron Dance? I didn't think so. It's awesome late game in Big Deck. Vengevine? Filler. Really, you don't want to buy additional cards to add to Big Deck; throwing together whatever you have is not just ok, it's recommended!

2. Use cards that do two+ things.

Think about Disenchant. It destroys one thing for 1W. Now look at Orim's Thunder. Destroys the same kind of thing, with the potential to take out a creature, for just 1R more. Fill your deck up with Orim's Thunder-like cards, not Disenchant-like cards. Kicker, entwine, flashback, etc., are all excellent.

3. Repeatable draw

This is a must. Whoever draws the most cards in long games comes out ahead. Candles of Leng is great, Sensei's Divining Top is good but a little annoying for everyone else, even Jayemdae Tome is sweet. Some of my favorites include Recycle/Null Profusion (although they are tricky), Sylvan Library, Arcanis, and Sphinx of Magosi.

4. Beef

Get big dumb Timmy creatures. This is not difficult.

5. Life gain

Don't use stuff like Angel's Mercy, mind you, but lifelink and utility life gain are always good. I like Clearwater Goblet. Jim goes nuts when I drop that thing.

6. Combat control (not tricks)

Maze of Ith is my favorite card, ever. Since it's a little pricey nowadays, the brand new Mystifying Maze is a good replacement. This format only sustains two or three creatures on the board at a time, max, so it's good to be able to decide who comes out ahead in combat.

7. Mass removal (but not too much of it)

Always have a reset button. Wrath of God/Damnation, Akroma's Vengeance, etc. You don't want too much of it though. Plague Wind is great too!

8. Theming

Finally, although I don't do it, a lot of the guys build Big Decks around a theme (tribal, graveyard). This both makes it easy to make a deck, and far less expensive overall. It also allows for real crazy shenanigans.

Very nice points Steve.

I want to point out a mistake I made a few times. Just because Kird Ape and Loam Lion get bigger and are one drops, Watch Wolf is a 2 drop 3/3, and 2/2 one drops are good in all other formats doesn't mean they are good in big deck. I find myself grabbing them either early game and I don't have the mana for them, late game when I'd rather draw something else, or drawing them at the right time in any other format and it isn't as good.

'Weenie' vanilla guys are not good. Stuff like Figure of Destiny is okay, but you better have protection for it and protection for that protection, and at that point it stops being a great card and becomes an expensive piece of crap someone Doomblades, O Rings, Mind Controls, or someone resets the field.

You know what cards I will never take out of my big deck? The Hondens, that's right I said it. The one-off Legendary Enchantment Shrine from Kamigawa. I might not get all of them out for the full effect of drawing 5, dealing 5, healing 10, getting 5 1/1s, and making my opponents discard 5, but getting one or two out is enough to upset the game in my favor. And we are talking about uncommons you can get for dirt cheap.

You know another card that really messes up how people play: Price of Glory. Now your Instant spells and Flashable things cost you lands as well. Sure it hurts the caster too, but that's why you use Darksteel Ingot, llanowar elves, or other cheap non-land mana sources. And this is another card you can find in the 10 cent bin.

~Zuty

Zuty wrote:Very nice points Steve.

I want to point out a mistake I made a few times. Just because Kird Ape and Loam Lion get bigger and are one drops, Watch Wolf is a 2 drop 3/3, and 2/2 one drops are good in all other formats doesn't mean they are good in big deck. I find myself grabbing them either early game and I don't have the mana for them, late game when I'd rather draw something else, or drawing them at the right time in any other format and it isn't as good.

'Weenie' vanilla guys are not good. Stuff like Figure of Destiny is okay, but you better have protection for it and protection for that protection, and at that point it stops being a great card and becomes an expensive piece of crap someone Doomblades, O Rings, Mind Controls, or someone resets the field.

i'd say John W would disagree with almost all of this, as he has a very aggressive Big Deck. John, you want to chime in?

however, John W might like Price of Glory... there's a meta-choice that i missed. i'd hate to sit across from that card.

Hondens are fine! Big Deck is all about personal preference; whatever works for you is great! i love this format for that exact reason.

I've just found whenever I draw that Watch Wolf or Kird Ape and I drop it, it's not a big deal compared to everything else.

Or one of the two happens:

Something is going to go off soon that will make me discard my card, so I better play it. Now I just lost 1-2 mana I could have used to drop something that in the long run would have been better.

Something pops and resets the field. So now that one or two mana I used to play that weenie was wasted and I could have saved it to use an Instant to draw a card, counter something in coming to me, or have bounced my weenie to save it.

Sure, I have dropped Loam Lion and Kird Ape and been happy with it, but I feel like the good of drawing them is out weighted by the bad. I'd much rather draw a utility creature, a spell with a kicker/entwine/etc., hell even a draw spell over drawing a 2/2 one drop. I feel like the one drop 2/2s or really nice weenies that every other format loves aren't that good in this format because there are SO MANY ways to deal with them that it's ridiculous and it they do resolve, they might be good for a bit, but you need to Voltron them or armor them up with auras to really make them good.

Yeah, I have a Loam Lion out with Lightning Greaves, Boar Umbra, Snake Umbra, Drake Umbra, Basilisk Collar, and a Jitte. Yeah, I am happy with that. But dropping a Loam Lion on turn 10 ... Underwhelming ... And it always seems like that's what happens to me. I wanna draw a card and feel like this kid every time. Loam Lion and Kird Ape and other weenies do not do that for me. Levelers are much better in my opinion.

~Zuty

The thing with magic today is that the card pool is so large that you can now built a weenie deck with tons of aggressive creatures. Your problem Zuty is that you dont have enough aggressive creatures available to actually build an aggressive deck. Aggro decks also need specific support spells. When I play my aggro deck, I have to play differently than with my control decks. I need to lay guys and attack 1 person until they die. I dont have the power to go after more than 1 person at a time.

The other thing that I need to do is make sure the game never gets out of the early stages of the game. If you guys get to the mid or late game, your spells are so much more powerful that you just kill me as an afterthought. That is why I use spells like armageddon and other LD effects to slow you guys down. I also have earthquake effects that deal damage to everyone at once. Price of progress is the premier burn spell for this deck.

The best senario for my deck it to attack one person for a few turns, get them to a very low life then move to the next person. I want to cripple 1 person so they have few options. I also need to play an armegeddon effect on turn 5-6 to set everyone else back. I then move on to the next weakest person, and try to kill them. Eventually someone will become powerful enough that I cant actually attack them. They get to the point where they can wipe me off the table as an afterthought.

This is the point where my politicking skills come in. Now I want to stay alive and show everyone else who the threat is. I have to show how easy it will be for anyone to just kill me. I talk alot, point out a lot of threats, and generally act like I am already dead. Then I tap a ton of mana and earthquake everyone for 10 and win the game.

I like playing with spells that seem to be generally underpowered in the format and using them to become a legitimate threat.

I'm not sure about price of glory. I think it would hurt me as much or more than you. I dont have powerful draw spells to recoup land, so any instant I play really sets me back. I would probably have to redesign my deck to use it. I really like it though.

Hey, is anyone gonna put the new timetwister into their big deck?

dark burn wrote:Hey, is anyone gonna put the new timetwister into their big deck?

I don't see why.

Time Spiral is good because you get to untap first and use the new spells.

Memory Jar is good because no one else gets to cast their spells.

Wheel of Fortune is good because it's cheap and enables graveyard shenanigans.

5's a lot to play to give everyone else a shot at rebuilding before you.

Its a draw 7 that resets graveyards. I think most draw 7s are good in big deck because none of the decks can just combo out and win the game before it gets back to your turn. I think I will be adding this to my aggro big deck.

dark burn wrote:Hey, is anyone gonna put the new timetwister into their big deck?

ha, i don't really see why either, for the same reasons that Dan cited. however, its appearance did alert me to the fact that i don't have Time Spiral in my Big Deck...

I really liked playing with your aggro deck last night John. My deck is a cluster fuck of horribleness, so I liked playing something that flowed really well. I think I now have an idea for where I want my big deck to go, so I am going to work on that this weekend. I'll post it all on here so I can get feedback from you guys, which will help me out A LOT.

~Zuty

I put a bunch of new stuff in my big deck.
lets play.

I made some changes to mine too recently, and am looking for some chance to play.

Dare we attempt another meetup at someone's house (or bar)? I wouldn't mind playing some multiplayer big deck for more than 10 minutes between rounds...

I think it's an idea worth trying again.
First issue would where/when?

I'm down for something at KC's or someone's place (like Dan's or my own) sometime next week.

Found this in the bulk bin this weekend:

Malevolent Awakening

Has anyone tried this in big deck? If you keep 1BB open, it lets you recycle your creatures. Is that too much mana to hold open?

Dan asked me last night why i want more than 250 cards in my new Big Decks. i'll explain as best i can.

1. randomness. with a larger deck, there is more chance that i won't play the same cards over and over. there is a lot of interaction built in to these decks intrinsically, so the random plays won't interfere.
   
2. variety. i like a LOT of different cards. i almost like every card. ergo, i want to use as many different cards as i can.
   
3. lack of consistency. consistency really isn't necessary in Big Deck, especially multiplayer. so why limit myself?
   
4. completeness. i dunno, i just want every possible playable card in my theme.
   
5. insanity. i'm totally OCD and batshit insane when it comes to deckbuilding. i know this. you know this.
   

I have been arguing bumping my deck to 300 just so I can use a larger array of cards. Also, I hate cutting cards.

~Zuty